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Is Joomla about to fall off a cliff?

Now that major Joomla releases have moved to a timed model (every six months), users need to update their sites more frequently. And despite my prediction that future major releases would be smooth, that wasn't the case for many of you with version 2.5. Despite the fact that beta versions were available for weeks before the final release, some extension developers were unprepared and their extensions broke when users upgraded to 2.5. It's now a couple of months since the release of this latest version and one major extension we use is still classed as beta for their 2.5 version.

This has the potential to become a real mess. If users have an unfriendly experience, they will stop using Joomla. If users depart, developers, particularly those who produce fine commercial extensions that give Joomla a good reputation, will also lose interest. And then the whole thing will fall off a cliff. To be fair, I can't see this happening any time soon and it is still relatively early days in the new release schedule, so there is time to improve. But here are a few things worth considering.

Firstly it is important to note that there are two types of Joomla updates; let's call them major and minor releases. I'm talking about major releases such as the change from version 1.5 to 1.6 and 1.7 to 2.5. Minor releases are vital as these contain security and bug fixes and it is a credit to the Joomla team that they keep on top of this so well. When I think back over the years, almost every time there has been a minor release, the change has gone smoothly. There have been a couple of exceptions, but problems were rectified pretty quickly.

Secondly, this challenge is not unique to Joomla. Wordpress users have complained for years that updates are too frequent. And if you're a Joomla extensions developer, thank your lucky stars that you chose to build Joomla solutions instead of the Firefox extensions. Their releases are every six weeks and developers are always chasing their tail, trying to keep up. No – the problem isn't Joomla – it's the nature of open source. And that's why the thing I love most about Joomla is also the thing I most hate about Joomla. Anyone can come along and build an extension. Many of these are free and it's pretty hard to make money at that price point, so they tend to be part-time projects. When a new version comes along, developers have to balance their full time jobs and family as well as make time to check that their extensions will work in the new version. Frankly it isn't much easier for commercial developers. Technical support and bug fixes soak up an inordinate amount of time.

Thirdly, some developers will not be able to keep up with this pace and this might be a good thing. I would rather see fewer good quality extensions by developers who have the time to provide ongoing development.

So who is to blame and what can be done? The blame, I guess, rests with Joomla who chose to move to a timed release schedule. But was this a bad move? There was a huge amount of time – 3 years - between version 1.5 and 1.6. Now there is a known release schedule. So the problem rests with developers. They need to factor in the new versions and allocate appropriate test time prior to release. Many developers do this well, but others are still coming to grips with this new routine.

What do you think? Is the new Joomla release schedule causing you grief? Have you experienced issues with extensions breaking after upgrading? Do you think Joomla is in danger of falling off a cliff? Please, share your thoughts below.

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Comments 11

Kevin Morrison on Thursday, 29 March 2012 10:12

I can say without a doubt that I will not be migrating any more sites on Joomla. The migration from 1.0 to 1.5 was a real chore and although for the most part going from 1.5 to 2.5 was not as dramatic. I still had issues, especially where the Joomla team obviously did not think things through very well and the initial release of 2.5 was not yet ready to be out of beta (either that or it was carry over problems from 1.6 or 1.7?). Even now I have some sites that I have updated from 1.6 thru 2.5 and have issues with problems that obviously never got fixed (such as the admin menu not displaying after the extension was installed) so I now need to schedule time to run a clean install of Joomla and manually bring in the data to make the site work as expected.

Regardless of version it was a very time consuming proposition and one that I will not repeat again. I personally think getting users from one version to another should be integrated into the core. There would still be issues and that should be expected but at least the development team might take into account what they do in the process of upgrading Joomla a bit more if they were to consider how it would affect migration from one to the other.

Hopefully with this new time release cycle the newer versions will not be so different from one version to the next that it will be easier to work through, both for users and developers. I can see already where this has had an impact on the extensions developed for Joomla in that many of the extensions that had no business being listed on the JED are disappearing and that in my opinion is a good thing. There seemed to be this attitude that just because I can I will from developers that really do not deserve the title "Developer" and what they created either only worked in certain conditions, not at all or had security related problems and in most all cases the developer was not available for comment or simply replied “it’s free use as is!” and granted that is appreciated if they are not going to provide even minimal support then they should not be privy to being listed on the JED. This however is a good topic for another article...

All in all it is not as much an issue for me as I know the internal workings of Joomla and was able to compensate for any variables (still no fun). That would not be the case for a general user through and I don’t see how they would be able to do this without paying someone to help them. My biggest issue was for many sites to be migrated I had to purchase extensions and templates a second time, doubling my cost for the site and then some sites used extensions that did not get updated and alternate tools had to be sought out and tested in order to complete the process.

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I can say without a doubt that I will not be migrating any more sites on Joomla. The migration from 1.0 to 1.5 was a real chore and although for the most part going from 1.5 to 2.5 was not as dramatic. I still had issues, especially where the Joomla team obviously did not think things through very well and the initial release of 2.5 was not yet ready to be out of beta (either that or it was carry over problems from 1.6 or 1.7?). Even now I have some sites that I have updated from 1.6 thru 2.5 and have issues with problems that obviously never got fixed (such as the admin menu not displaying after the extension was installed) so I now need to schedule time to run a clean install of Joomla and manually bring in the data to make the site work as expected. Regardless of version it was a very time consuming proposition and one that I will not repeat again. I personally think getting users from one version to another should be integrated into the core. There would still be issues and that should be expected but at least the development team might take into account what they do in the process of upgrading Joomla a bit more if they were to consider how it would affect migration from one to the other. Hopefully with this new time release cycle the newer versions will not be so different from one version to the next that it will be easier to work through, both for users and developers. I can see already where this has had an impact on the extensions developed for Joomla in that many of the extensions that had no business being listed on the JED are disappearing and that in my opinion is a good thing. There seemed to be this attitude that just because I can I will from developers that really do not deserve the title "Developer" and what they created either only worked in certain conditions, not at all or had security related problems and in most all cases the developer was not available for comment or simply replied “it’s free use as is!” and granted that is appreciated if they are not going to provide even minimal support then they should not be privy to being listed on the JED. This however is a good topic for another article... All in all it is not as much an issue for me as I know the internal workings of Joomla and was able to compensate for any variables (still no fun). That would not be the case for a general user through and I don’t see how they would be able to do this without paying someone to help them. My biggest issue was for many sites to be migrated I had to purchase extensions and templates a second time, doubling my cost for the site and then some sites used extensions that did not get updated and alternate tools had to be sought out and tested in order to complete the process.
Guest - Michael Sharp on Thursday, 29 March 2012 11:51

Richard, you raised some valid points and ask some pertinent questions. Not necessarily a bad thing. But you are right, this policy will definitely have some impact. I think the impact will be economic.

I am already seeing signs of it. Speaking to some of my small clients, no matter how you dress it up, security patches, maintenance fees, whatever, the client has trouble comprehending why they are being asked to pay for something that previously worked just because of an upgrade. They see it as having to pay for updates and security patches to something they already consider, works. The headaches it has caused me by trolling reviews (your course has helped me a lot there) and finding extensions that can do the same job, but are compatible with the new Joomla releases, is not the best way t spend my working day. Sure, that's how we learn about new things, but lately I seem to be always spending more and more time trying to uncover that elusive extension that will be compatible. Of course it may only be applicable to a few clients, so you cannot easily spread the costs of the extension purchases and implementations across clients.

It seems each time they have jumped a release something has to be replaced. Of course at the end of the day the client must be prepared to foot the bill. But as they say "why should I have to pay for these upgrades?" Their question is good when, we consider what they had worked before. Of course they are not even aware of the security risks associated with running old versions. Once again, who pays? And of course, they will blame me if they get hacked, as happened with one site.

Now I am told we have to go through this with each and every client on a regular basis, then my prices have reflect all this work. Joomla will now become a more expensive option against other CMS's that have not adopted this regular upgrade policy. Of course, not too many customers know and even less care about what their web site platform is. They only see the regular costs increasing which they did not have to pay before.

As a result of this policy I have now implemented an upgrade/maintenance fee apart from any work we do on the site. Some have already complained, but they have responded by not getting new work done as readily as before.

Now if the sites are allowed to fall so far behind, as was the case since 1.6, 1.7, which we held onto only because some sites site depended so heavily on a specific extension, which the client likes. Now that the problems are solved with this extension for 2.5, I find myself upgrading it at my own expense, just to make it convenient for me to work on. Of course the client does noes not care, nor do they want to pay for work they did not request.

Do I think Joomla is in danger of falling off a cliff? Hmm, we will have to wait and see how much extra, unpaid work is imposed on developers and whether they can either absorb the additional costs to regularly upgrade, or before the client votes with their pocket book by looking for cheaper alternatives.

I almost wish I was not the first to reply you, as I am fascinated to hear from other wiser heads, since maybe this means a change in business model. What do you think? If so, how would you structure the charges?

Richard, your post raises many more questions than it answers.

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Richard, you raised some valid points and ask some pertinent questions. Not necessarily a bad thing. But you are right, this policy will definitely have some impact. I think the impact will be economic. I am already seeing signs of it. Speaking to some of my small clients, no matter how you dress it up, security patches, maintenance fees, whatever, the client has trouble comprehending why they are being asked to pay for something that previously worked just because of an upgrade. They see it as having to pay for updates and security patches to something they already consider, works. The headaches it has caused me by trolling reviews (your course has helped me a lot there) and finding extensions that can do the same job, but are compatible with the new Joomla releases, is not the best way t spend my working day. Sure, that's how we learn about new things, but lately I seem to be always spending more and more time trying to uncover that elusive extension that will be compatible. Of course it may only be applicable to a few clients, so you cannot easily spread the costs of the extension purchases and implementations across clients. It seems each time they have jumped a release something has to be replaced. Of course at the end of the day the client must be prepared to foot the bill. But as they say "why should I have to pay for these upgrades?" Their question is good when, we consider what they had worked before. Of course they are not even aware of the security risks associated with running old versions. Once again, who pays? And of course, they will blame me if they get hacked, as happened with one site. Now I am told we have to go through this with each and every client on a regular basis, then my prices have reflect all this work. Joomla will now become a more expensive option against other CMS's that have not adopted this regular upgrade policy. Of course, not too many customers know and even less care about what their web site platform is. They only see the regular costs increasing which they did not have to pay before. As a result of this policy I have now implemented an upgrade/maintenance fee apart from any work we do on the site. Some have already complained, but they have responded by not getting new work done as readily as before. Now if the sites are allowed to fall so far behind, as was the case since 1.6, 1.7, which we held onto only because some sites site depended so heavily on a specific extension, which the client likes. Now that the problems are solved with this extension for 2.5, I find myself upgrading it at my own expense, just to make it convenient for me to work on. Of course the client does noes not care, nor do they want to pay for work they did not request. Do I think Joomla is in danger of falling off a cliff? Hmm, we will have to wait and see how much extra, unpaid work is imposed on developers and whether they can either absorb the additional costs to regularly upgrade, or before the client votes with their pocket book by looking for cheaper alternatives. I almost wish I was not the first to reply you, as I am fascinated to hear from other wiser heads, since maybe this means a change in business model. What do you think? If so, how would you structure the charges? Richard, your post raises many more questions than it answers.
John Miglautsch on Thursday, 29 March 2012 15:01

I maintain 32 sites. Most of them are for friends or non-profit organizations which do not pay me. Most have had very few changes per year. I was interested in Joomla so that more people could have a part in updating specific sections of content without everything going through me. I have migrated 3 sites to Joomla and have not seen any interest in participation. Thank you for your insight - I think you're right - it is completely conterproductive for me to update small sites simply to have them stop working. Updates must provide better value with genuine enhancement over existing software. Otherwise the update process is extremely counter productive. For years people argued that Word was superior because everyone knew it, less employee training ... when Microsoft changed the entire interface (for what reason I know not) I left and have never returned. It makes sense for software companies to 'enhance' and force users to pay over and over for the same features - Usually open source does not have that need and remains more stable. Joomla's aggressive updates have left me in the dust. Back to Pagemill 3 :)

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I maintain 32 sites. Most of them are for friends or non-profit organizations which do not pay me. Most have had very few changes per year. I was interested in Joomla so that more people could have a part in updating specific sections of content without everything going through me. I have migrated 3 sites to Joomla and have not seen any interest in participation. Thank you for your insight - I think you're right - it is completely conterproductive for me to update small sites simply to have them stop working. Updates must provide better value with genuine enhancement over existing software. Otherwise the update process is extremely counter productive. For years people argued that Word was superior because everyone knew it, less employee training ... when Microsoft changed the entire interface (for what reason I know not) I left and have never returned. It makes sense for software companies to 'enhance' and force users to pay over and over for the same features - Usually open source does not have that need and remains more stable. Joomla's aggressive updates have left me in the dust. Back to Pagemill 3 :)
Margot on Thursday, 29 March 2012 19:37

I understand the frustration BUT: professional IT companies warn their customers about the maintenance costs of software and include it in contracts.

I think Joomla's main fault has been staying with a single version for so long that people have become complacent about maintenance, and managing their customers expectations about this necessary evil in software ownership.

Software is by nature very complex, and though they try, designers and developers cannot foresee every consequence of choices made. And then there is the customer's desire to get more. They often come with: if we can do this cool stuff can we maybe also do this other cool thing which would improve my life no end? Give people a good product and their minds spin out of control with the potential of the thing - I know I am guilty of this one.

Yes, say the developers, we can but then we have to change internal workings and that may have an impact on x and y and we will have to completely rewrite z.

Software evolves and it seems to me that the Joomla team now have a sound plan for the future evolution of their software. They have isolated the core and made the whole thing more modular so that future major upgrades do not have such a big impact on people's specific configuration of Joomla + extensions.

I would say that extensions that do not keep pace will and should fall off the Joomla train. Knowing how much work it is to set up an ecommerce solution I feel extremely fortunate that I chose one of the very few online shop extensions that has kept pace with this upgrade.

Maybe instead of disallowing extensions that dont keep pace it could be a better idea to include a 'future proof' rating in the reviews. Those that dont rate well will not be chosen by those that are implementing sites for customers. Disallowing them would mean some kind of review / approval process that I am sure no one at the JED has time for and that would be a little anti open source. It would also send a message to developers that upgrading with Joomla is important if they want to stay on board..

So I dont think the Joomla train is going over a cliff, its just that some of the extensions are not able to hang on as the train shifts into second gear :-)

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I understand the frustration BUT: professional IT companies warn their customers about the maintenance costs of software and include it in contracts. I think Joomla's main fault has been staying with a single version for so long that people have become complacent about maintenance, and managing their customers expectations about this necessary evil in software ownership. Software is by nature very complex, and though they try, designers and developers cannot foresee every consequence of choices made. And then there is the customer's desire to get more. They often come with: if we can do this cool stuff can we maybe also do this other cool thing which would improve my life no end? Give people a good product and their minds spin out of control with the potential of the thing - I know I am guilty of this one. Yes, say the developers, we can but then we have to change internal workings and that may have an impact on x and y and we will have to completely rewrite z. Software evolves and it seems to me that the Joomla team now have a sound plan for the future evolution of their software. They have isolated the core and made the whole thing more modular so that future major upgrades do not have such a big impact on people's specific configuration of Joomla + extensions. I would say that extensions that do not keep pace will and should fall off the Joomla train. Knowing how much work it is to set up an ecommerce solution I feel extremely fortunate that I chose one of the very few online shop extensions that has kept pace with this upgrade. Maybe instead of disallowing extensions that dont keep pace it could be a better idea to include a 'future proof' rating in the reviews. Those that dont rate well will not be chosen by those that are implementing sites for customers. Disallowing them would mean some kind of review / approval process that I am sure no one at the JED has time for and that would be a little anti open source. It would also send a message to developers that upgrading with Joomla is important if they want to stay on board.. So I dont think the Joomla train is going over a cliff, its just that some of the extensions are not able to hang on as the train shifts into second gear :-)
Guest - Sean Owens on Thursday, 29 March 2012 20:42

There are more fundemantal questions to be answered on joomla. Changing the core to the point where component developers have to change their code is going the same route as alot of other platforms. ( firefox, chrome, apple etc etc. ) It is the nature of platforms that they evolve and are kept secure. I see joomla as a platform primarly as we develop lots of bespoke comps for clients. It's irritating to see changes being made that effect the working of an existing component that add no value. Upgrades are like paying tax, you see very little for your money. If a commitment was made to have all classes backward compatible from version 2.5 on I think this would restore the confidence by the component providers.

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There are more fundemantal questions to be answered on joomla. Changing the core to the point where component developers have to change their code is going the same route as alot of other platforms. ( firefox, chrome, apple etc etc. ) It is the nature of platforms that they evolve and are kept secure. I see joomla as a platform primarly as we develop lots of bespoke comps for clients. It's irritating to see changes being made that effect the working of an existing component that add no value. Upgrades are like paying tax, you see very little for your money. If a commitment was made to have all classes backward compatible from version 2.5 on I think this would restore the confidence by the component providers.
Andrew on Thursday, 29 March 2012 22:15

A possible problem is if a developer comes up with a good extension or plug in they may be reluctant to make it available considering all the possible time constraints as they will have to provide some form of assistance and then the constant changes to Joomla.

On one side the public see Joomla as Free software trusted by millions, this could make selling a web site difficult if the customer visits joomla.org and sees the designer is getting the software free. very few will bother to look through the vast range of extensions bot free and commercial.

A problem I think I would have as a developer is the number of downloads Vs the number of thank you comments, I have no doubt it could be very easy to become disillusioned feeling unappreciated for all the work they put in especially the many who don't even put a donation box on their web site.

I am not using Joomla very long and doubt I would have bothered if I started at 1.6 even 1.5 without Richards tutorials, the danger I see is Joomla could become another program for those who fully understand the code / framework a bit like Dreamweaver.

0
A possible problem is if a developer comes up with a good extension or plug in they may be reluctant to make it available considering all the possible time constraints as they will have to provide some form of assistance and then the constant changes to Joomla. On one side the public see Joomla as Free software trusted by millions, this could make selling a web site difficult if the customer visits joomla.org and sees the designer is getting the software free. very few will bother to look through the vast range of extensions bot free and commercial. A problem I think I would have as a developer is the number of downloads Vs the number of thank you comments, I have no doubt it could be very easy to become disillusioned feeling unappreciated for all the work they put in especially the many who don't even put a donation box on their web site. I am not using Joomla very long and doubt I would have bothered if I started at 1.6 even 1.5 without Richards tutorials, the danger I see is Joomla could become another program for those who fully understand the code / framework a bit like Dreamweaver.
Andrew on Thursday, 29 March 2012 22:17

Edit,

A problem I think I would have as a developer, Should Read If I was a developer

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Edit, A problem I think I would have as a developer, Should Read If I was a developer
Tracey Snow on Friday, 30 March 2012 02:44

As I've mentioned before, I think that Joomla is a little unrealistic with the removal of support for previous "production" version only 30 day after the release of the new one.

That is just not enough time for most people to prepare, test and deploy the new release. I do see that there was a release for 1.5x this week so maybe they are softening on this 30 day nonsense.

Most software vendors will support N-1 versions of their software. In the case of Joomla, that would mean supporting 1.5x and 2.5x until version 3.5 became available. At that time 1.5x would be dropped. I'm expecting the older release would be "maintenance mode" support, not active development. This would give more flexibility to people supporting large-scale or multiple installations some breathing room.

When it comes to extensions, I'm not sure how you would handle this except to provide an abstraction layer (not sure if it exists today) and guarantee that features would have a depreciation policy of announcement and one release minimum of support thereafter. This would slow down innovation in some instances but it would save your third-party developers from having to drop everything to upgrade the extensions. Unlike Richard, I think that many smaller developers are much more likely to innovate unique solutions that a few major players.

Whatever the solutions, I should first point out that, even with the issues, the upgrade was relatively painless in comparison to other upgrades I have been part of. Also, I'm hopeful that the issues we did see are attributed to people/developers coming to terms with the changes to the Joomla release cycle rather than a breakdown of the current model.

0
As I've mentioned before, I think that Joomla is a little unrealistic with the removal of support for previous "production" version only 30 day after the release of the new one. That is just not enough time for most people to prepare, test and deploy the new release. I do see that there was a release for 1.5x this week so maybe they are softening on this 30 day nonsense. Most software vendors will support N-1 versions of their software. In the case of Joomla, that would mean supporting 1.5x and 2.5x until version 3.5 became available. At that time 1.5x would be dropped. I'm expecting the older release would be "maintenance mode" support, not active development. This would give more flexibility to people supporting large-scale or multiple installations some breathing room. When it comes to extensions, I'm not sure how you would handle this except to provide an abstraction layer (not sure if it exists today) and guarantee that features would have a depreciation policy of announcement and one release minimum of support thereafter. This would slow down innovation in some instances but it would save your third-party developers from having to drop everything to upgrade the extensions. Unlike Richard, I think that many smaller developers are much more likely to innovate unique solutions that a few major players. Whatever the solutions, I should first point out that, even with the issues, the upgrade was relatively painless in comparison to other upgrades I have been part of. Also, I'm hopeful that the issues we did see are attributed to people/developers coming to terms with the changes to the Joomla release cycle rather than a breakdown of the current model.
Kevin Morrison on Friday, 30 March 2012 05:23

Tracey - What they meant buy no support was that no new things would be integrated into 1.5. They will continue to provide critical security updates for some time yet. I don't know off the top of my head when the true end will be but a Google search will tell you.

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Tracey - What they meant buy no support was that no new things would be integrated into 1.5. They will continue to provide critical security updates for some time yet. I don't know off the top of my head when the true end will be but a Google search will tell you.
Robert Wilson on Friday, 30 March 2012 05:55

This info is taken directly from Joomla.org

Long Term Support Release:Joomla! 1.5.26
End of Support:April 2012.
Note:Major security fixes will be done until release of 3.0 in September 2012.

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This info is taken directly from Joomla.org Long Term Support Release:Joomla! 1.5.26 End of Support:April 2012. Note:Major security fixes will be done until release of 3.0 in September 2012.
Richard Hill on Wednesday, 04 April 2012 00:21

The updates to Joomla were well overdue, - particularly the security elements, and most of them enhanced the product even if it meant a bit of a learning curve It has, however, left many of the modules developed for 1.5 in the dust - a shame if they were ones you used.

If you have developed preferred suppliers of modules, who are enthusiastic and active and to who the changes seem to be no problem, you can keep pace, and that this means that developing on the new versions is actually better than before.

Migrating sites from 1.5, on the other hand is a beast. Better we found to stick with what you have got, and add to security using products like admin tools pro, rather than to attempt to upgrade.

Bespoke scripts, you need to get clever at including them in places that allow upgrades, or getting the module and template writers to include them in the first place.

The world is going to move on regardless. Try reinstalling old Apple software and see how far you get.

Richard

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The updates to Joomla were well overdue, - particularly the security elements, and most of them enhanced the product even if it meant a bit of a learning curve It has, however, left many of the modules developed for 1.5 in the dust - a shame if they were ones you used. If you have developed preferred suppliers of modules, who are enthusiastic and active and to who the changes seem to be no problem, you can keep pace, and that this means that developing on the new versions is actually better than before. Migrating sites from 1.5, on the other hand is a beast. Better we found to stick with what you have got, and add to security using products like admin tools pro, rather than to attempt to upgrade. Bespoke scripts, you need to get clever at including them in places that allow upgrades, or getting the module and template writers to include them in the first place. The world is going to move on regardless. Try reinstalling old Apple software and see how far you get. Richard

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